In this special bonus interview, host Betsy Bird chats with the National Ambassador for Young People’s Literature, Jason Reynolds about his collaboration with 12 year old Irthan in last week’s episode, “A Worm’s Worth.” They dive into the story Jason grew, “Hoo and Wut”, and explore its themes of friendship, being seen for who you are, and fairness–all of which, Jason explains, reflects his own values and that of his young collaborator. Jason also shares his writing tips and tells all the listeners out there to challenge your curiosity, that's the way to keep growing your imagination.
Listen along as The Story Seeds Podcast host Betsy Bird chats with the National Ambassador for Young People’s Literature, Jason Reynolds (author of Stamped: Racism, Antiracism, and You, a Remix of the National Book Award-winning book by Dr. Ibram X. Kendi.) They talk about what it was like working with 12 year old Irthan in Episode 10 “A Worm’s Worth” and growing his story seed about a worm that turns into a human on a full moon’s night.
Jason also talks to Betsy about how he got his start as a writer and shares advice for keeping your imagination alive: go learn the thing you’re not interested in.
This episode is also available on YouTube. Subscribe here.
Additional Information
Stories mentioned in this episode: Ghost, Look Both Ways, Long Way Down, Miles Morales: Spider-Man (A YA Marvel Novel), As Brave As You, Stamped: Racism, Antiracism, and You, a remix of the National Book Award-winning book by Dr. Ibram X Kendi by Jason Reynolds.
Young Landlords by Walter Dean Myers. Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America by Dr. Ibram X. Kendi
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Show credits
The Story Seeds Podcast is Literary Safari production, created and executive produced by Sandhya Nankani. Scoring, mixing, and sound design of this bonus episode is by Ania Grzesik and Matt Boynton of Ultraviolet Audio. Music by Andrew VanWyngarden, Grammy-nominated singer/songwriter/musician and co-founder of MGMT.
Visit us at www.storyseedspodcast.com
[Intro]
Betsy [0:00]: Hi Story Seeds Podcast listeners. Your host Betsy Bird here. Welcome to our bonus episode.
One of my favorite parts of this job is that I get to talk to all the authors we are featuring on the podcast to get the behind the scenes scoop on their experiences and writing life.
[Interview]
Betsy: [0:25] Hey this is Betsy Bird, host of The Story Seed's Podcast. Now, I do not want to shock you or anything, but I am here with the newly minted completely, original National Ambassador of Young People's Literature, Jason Reynolds. Now, if you haven't heard of Jason or his work, then allow me to pluck up this large rock that you've been convalescing under and explain to you the situation here. This will jog your memory. Do you recall the great American read and how Jason's Ghost was one of the very few contemporary children's books on there? Or how about his Newbery Honor for A Long Way Down or his National Book Award nomination for Look Both Ways? Have you even read All American Boys or his Miles Morales Spider-Man novel? Because if not, I have really good news for you. It is not too late to discover someone this overwhelmingly talented. By now you have heard his story Hoo and Wut on our last episode. And I'm excited to be talking to him today. So, Hi Jason, how are you doing?
Jason: [1:23] I'm good, I'm good. Thank you for having me.
Betsy: [1:25] No problem. Thanks for being here. I've heard a lot of kids being talked to on this podcast and none of them were like Irthan. He is like this Renaissance kid. I have never seen anyone like it. What was ... what was your take on him?
Jason: [1:41] I mean, it was just ... I guess, he reminded me of who I was when I was that age, you know, just sort of curious about the world. Passionate about the things he was passionate about. I'm interested in the things he was interested in. You know, just sort of ... you know. I think there was something about ... he sort of straddled this line of being completely a kid in the way that we know kids. Children, right? And also of having a broader view of the world, which I thought was just really inspiring. Super incredible.
Betsy: [02:18] So what was it about working with him that sort of led you to being part of The Story Seeds Podcast?
Jason: [2:23] You know, I think so when I ... when we sat down to talk, when I met him, he started to talk about his music. You know, I grew up sort of a music kid, loved music. I still am a big music person. My little brother is a musician and a lot of people in my family played the piano and it was always a thing in our house. And so when he started to talk about his music and playing the drums, that was the initial sort of magnetism I think for me. I always am looking for any opportunity to talk to a young person about music. Especially a young person like him who knows the ins and outs of musicianship. And he wanted to show me his videos, his YouTube videos of him playing the drums. And he's really good and sort of getting into the intricacies of of his drum kit. These are all things... basically, we just nerded out, right. It was like, oh, this is a kid that I’m about to just have a nerd fest with about music. But what was even more incredible was when I asked him what he wanted to be when he got older, did want to play music, he was like, yeah but first I want to like, you know, I think he said he wanted to be a doctor or to be someone ...
Betsy: [3:29] He wanted to be a doctor.
Jason: [3:30] Yeah. Like, it's like, wait, you're playing music?
Betsy: [3:33] [laughs]
Jason: [3:35] Yeah. Like I wanna be a musician initially, right. But I also want to make sure that I help people because I think there's so many ... he was saying how he feels like there's so many people who are being mistreated. So many people who are being ignored and made invisible. And that really, really bothers him. Right. And there's something about a kid with a heart like that that they just can't be denied. You know?
Betsy: [3:57] Oh, yeah. And you guys are just like epic conversation. I'm sad that the listeners are only going to hear like a slice or like a smidgen of that because it just went from like everything under the sun. And so are you gonna keep up with this kid in any way? I mean, like, if only by watching his YouTube drumming videos. But do you want to see where he goes?
Jason: [4:18] I definitely do. I mean, I ... you know, I always tell people ... spending so much time around young people every day of my life that there are some that sort of stick to you. Right. There is something that you carry with you and that you ... that you drum up in random situations or that show up in random situations, you know. I'm sure I'll be somewhere and I'll see some kid drumming and I think of Irthan. I'm sure I'll see someone protesting and trying to figure out how to help certain social causes like homelessness or things of this nature and I’ll think of Irthan. And I’ll watch him. I'll be checking on the Internet to see what he pops up on. I'm sure eventually he'll have an Instagram or something like that. I'll pop up and watch him and when he's a little older. I'll definitely check in with him, you know. I'm careful about keeping up, keeping in communication with children just for safety reasons. But, you know, when he gets a little older, I definitely would try to, you know, keep my hand on his shoulder and at least let him know that there’s somebody who's rooting for him or has been rooting for him since he was very young.
Betsy: [5:21] You know, so young. Thinking he's gonna be president someday is not a crazy thought ... but I guess I'm just like “he's gonna do absolutely everything.” That’s amazing. Like you recorded this podcast right after becoming the National Ambassador of Young People's Literature. And in fact, you were in New York to share your ideas for your platform, Grab the Mic, Tell Your Story. So have you ever worked with a kid collaborator before this, before? I mean, clearly, you think it's important.
Jason: [5:51] I haven't worked with a kid collaborator to this extent, but I've done ... I mean, you know, earlier in my career, sort of before anyone knew my name, I used to go into schools and talk to sort of fourth graders and third graders and do a lot of collaborative work with them. Me and my buddy Jason would go in and we'd do sort of exquisite corpses and we do paintings and we’d sort of create these stories on the spot with whole classrooms. And it was really fun. So I do have a little experience with that part of it in terms of just trusting the person you're talking to in this case happens to be a 10 year old or 11 year old or ... or trying to humble myself enough to just listen to what he had to say. Let him tell his stories and be excited about whatever he's excited about. You know, if it's drumming, cool. If it's sort of helping people cool. If it's Brooklyn, cool. But all the things that he loves in this moment, I love too. And and I'm all in. And I have had a little experience. But the other thing is that I'm with kids all the time. And even though it may not be collaborative experience in terms of making a thing, but it's always a collaborative experience when it comes to making a space. That I have every single day of my life with young people as I travel this country. I mean, I just got back from Indiana and it's the same thing, right? Like, we may not be collaborating to make anything other than a space for each of us to have this human moment together. And sometimes that's enough. Sometimes that's the longest lasting thing. And so to that extent, I'd say I'm I'm pretty well-versed.
Betsy: [7:23] Yeah. Well, and so he comes... You guys had this huge conversation. You talk about everything, like school lunch, music, SpongeBob, everything. And then he starts talking his story idea. And it was like almost psychological. It was this proto-idea that was in its infancy, and you drew out like sort of the nut of the story there. So how did you kind of bring that all together when you were writing the story?
Jason: [7:49] I mean, first of all, you can't even imagine how, how incredible it is to talk to a kid for an hour about music. And then when you ask him what he wants the story to be about, he says earthworms. Right. And like I hope ... it's funny, this morning I was thinking about ... I'm working on this thing and I had this sort of aha moment to crack the code of this story. And all I could think to myself is, I hope I can hold on ... what Irthan displayed is what I've been trying to hold on to for twenty five years. The idea that we could be far reaching. That I could be here and make a left turn and figure out how to make that intersection connect. Right. And he didn't care, for him it was like earthworms. Yeah. And I say, well why? Why earthworms? Because nobody ever thinks about the earthworms. Right. Even though we've been talking about music for so long. This sort of ... the freedom of creativity, the freedom of, you know, the freedom to care. Right. Unashamedly and unabashedly. Like yeah yeah yeah, I know, we've been talking about me for a long time, but what I really want to talk about when it comes to the story is how no one is ever thinking about earthworms. And so that was the original thing. I wrote that down. I knew he loved music and he had already told me about his necessity to help people and his sort of pinch for making sure that we live in a more equitable world.
Jason: [9:11] So these were just things I was jotting down. I knew he loved Brooklyn and that that was his home. And that's a part of ... I mean anybody who’s growing up in Brooklyn knows that Brooklyn is a part of who you are. Right? It is connected to you. It is on you and in you. And, you know, that was a big part of the story, too. I mean, I lived there a long time and we sort of talked about that. You know, the neighborhoods that we live in, which were very similar. And so all of these things I sort of jot down as bullet points and then try to figure out... try to stretch myself. Right. All right, “this is what the kid talk about.” Now, it's up to me to tap into my inner Irthan right? Who I was when I was his age. Able to sort of say, I want to talk about, you know, cars and I want to talk about, you know ... who knows. Right. Pencils. Right. I don't know. Right. And being able to figure out how to connect them. And that's that sort of way it was for me. A meditative process. Almost like ... almost like, you know, a retreat for me to kind of go back into myself of who I was at that age to figure out where the connecting points were. To stretch myself, you know.
Betsy: [10:18] Right. Right. And as far as I can tell. Like I read your story, and as far as I can tell as a writer, you don't phone anything in like. This story was short and sweet, but had these like shots of truth just sort of packed in there from the start to the finish. And I just found myself wondering if you ever just take it easy. I mean, do you just put that much attention to everything you write? Or was this special some way?
Jason: [10:43] You know, the truth is is that both things are true. This was special. This was special. But everything is to me, right? If I'm going to sit down to contribute something, I need to make sure that I can stand on what I made. I'm not ... I can't. This is, of course, to a fault sometimes. I can't have ... I can't shortcut it. I just can't. And so if I'm going to do this collaboration with this young person to phone it in becomes almost exploitive. Right to phone and it becomes disrespectful and dismissive not of me or even of the Story Seeds. But of this child. And so for me, I took it as seriously as I take everything else that I do.
Betsy: [11:28] No it comes through. Now, an author sometimes has a completely different interpretation of their own work from what the readers get out of it. So with that in mind, like what in your eyes is this story about?
Jason: [11:42] For me, it's about a few things. I mean, number one, this is a story about companionship. About friendship. And that in the midst of ... the beauty of friendship is visibility. Right, that friends get to serve as sort of surveyors of your life, they get to serve as viewers and participants of your life. And that's a powerful, powerful thing. I think we misunderstand sometimes. It doesn't always have to be about us having all the same likes and dislikes. Sometimes it’s about you just standing with me and acknowledging the fact that I am standing here. And I think that's sort of part of what the story is about right. And the other part of the story, though, is about how even in the midst of us being witness to our lives, everybody around us could very well be ignoring us and cannot see us. And in the midst of them not seeing is perhaps they don't see us because they because they assume that we are to be ignored, because we are less than for some reason. Whether it's because we're homeless or because we are poorly dressed or because we may look a little disheveled or because we're an earthworm. Right. Suddenly, suddenly, our value, our social value has been stripped from us. And people get to step over us as if we're nothing. People get to fly over us as if we're nothing. Right. This is a very real part of who we are as human beings. And what I wanted to say in this story is that the biggest misconception is that the people who are ignoring us, those people believe that they are being...
Jason: [13:19] That they are... That they are the ones that they are the people. When truly in the midst of the ignorance, in the midst of their dismissal, in the midst of erasure, they are made less than people. They are made less than human. And that the people who they are ignoring are truly those who are living, are truly those who are having a true human experience. And everyone else is missing out. I firmly believe this. I think a prime example is the way that adults talk about and treat children. Right. It's like we're willing to overlook them. We're willing to dismiss them. We're willing to erase them. We're willing to say that they are less than because they are not twenty five or thirty five or forty five. That they're less than because they can't ... because some of them can't work for themselves yet and provide for themselves yet. They are less than because they haven't learned all the things that perhaps we know. And sometimes in the midst of that erasure and that dismissal, what we don't realize is that they know much more because what they know is different and what they know we've already lost. And there's something to be said about that. Irthan can say, “I want to play the drums, but I want to talk about earthworms,” because he's still holding on to a thing that most of us have lost. Have lost. And we're willing to see a guy like Irthan and his friends and his neighborhood and his age group as less than just because they’re children.
Betsy: [14:34] Yeah, yeah ... and so for the kids who are listening to this and they're hearing you say this and they're hearing you talk about this. Well they often want to know ... how did you, how did you become an author? How did you get your start? Like, what's your origin story man? Like, how did you begin with this?
Jason: [14:51] I mean, my my origin story is that I was an earthworm. Right. My origin story is that the kids in my neighborhood were earthworms. This idea. Like I grew up a kid who had had a great time. I come from a broken home, but my mom was amazing. My siblings were complicated. My family dynamics were complicated, but we were okay. And we did ... you know ... I lived in a cornucopia of a life. There were good things and bad things and complicated things and easy things and fun things and sad things. And all of those moments were happening simultaneously as I'm growing up. And the one place I couldn't run to were stories ... that just wasn't there. I could run to my friends, though, and I could sort of be on the street in the neighborhood. Being mischievous and breaking rules and being a knucklehead. But I could never run to a book because the books back then ... stories weren't being written for earthworms like me. That wasn't a thing. And so as I got older and I started to write poetry and I started to ... rap music saved my life in a very real way, which is why I love the fact that Irthan loves music so much, because music saved me and saved my whole my whole neighborhood. A lot of my friends. And it was in the studying of those lyrics that I discovery of poetry. And it was in the studying of that poetry that I found my voice. And then eventually it was in tapping back into the courage of my young self that allowed me to take poetry and eventually start writing stories for the rest of us who still sometimes can't can't find their narrative and their tale between pages of a book.
Betsy: [16:29] What was the first thing that made you want to write a novel then?
Jason: [16:32] So the truth is, is that the first thing that made me want to write a novel was Walter Dean Myers is the young landlords. So Christopher Myers is the good buddy of my one of my best friends, Walter's son. And Chris, I remember being twenty three, twenty four, twenty five. And Chris was telling me that he thinks I should write a novel. And I told him that I really didn't think I wanted to write at all anymore. I had been in the industry for four years at that point and I just ... I don't know. I was a bit despondent and discouraged. And he said, go and find one of my father's books and just read it and see if it shakes something loose. And I remember going to the store and buying the Young Landlords. And there was something about the language in that book and even the premise, the idea that these kids in the neighborhood could inherit a slum building, could become landlords and could save their home just by honoring it. Right is something that I directly connected to. The language, the way that he was writing, the looseness to it all. I don't know. It chemically changed me. And shortly after that, I gave it a swing.
Betsy: [17:41] Yeah. Works out. So certainly from a personal point of view. I'm just waiting for when you start doing picture books at some point. It's just
Jason: [17:49] It's coming. I got ... It's on its way.
Betsy: [17:52] Oh good. I like hearing that. All right, let's say you got a kid who's like, imagination is like a stuck in some way. It's just not coming. And and what can they do to unstick it in some way? What would be your advice to them?
Jason: [18:08] Oh, I think the best thing to do would be to learn the thing you don't know. Right. Sometimes I think that everybody has their interests and sometimes our interests become our prisons if we're not careful. Right. The things that we love and that we sort of gravitate toward. The things that we're good at. Right. I think sometimes these things can oppress us or they can to tamp us down if we're not careful. So my suggestion, my advice is, you know, go learn the thing that you're not interested in. Sometimes when I'm home, I turn the TV on and I flip through and then suddenly I'm watching the Discovery Channel and I'm learning about some bird I've never heard of. And I just go ahead and give it some time. I go ahead and give it 20 minutes of me learning about this bird. And usually that 20 minutes becomes an hour of me watching the whole show. And now I'm fasc ... Next thing you know, I'm on the Internet Googling what this bird is about. More about it right. And then you see it show itself in the pages of a book like As Brave As You. Right. That's the way that works. Right. I ... you know, I watch these strange movies. I read books that I normally wouldn't read to see if there's something there because everything has value and has something to offer. And your imagination is only fueled by your curiosity. Right. So you have to remain curious about the world around you. You have to. You can't be closed and think that your imagination is going to survive. It just doesn't work that way.
Betsy: [19:34] You know. Alright. So real quick here. You've got at least two books that we know that are coming out soon here. You got Stamped. Can you tell me a little bit about it?
Jason: [19:47] It is basically a new way for us to engage young people ... a new way for young people to engage, rather, with the conversation about race in this country. And not just the conversation as it pertains to its contemporary form, but the conversation as it pertains to history. Here is what happened. Right. But it's written in a way that feels relevant to them and for them, it's conversational. It's like being in conversation with history. It changes the way that we think about what it means to read a history book. And I'm hoping that they use it in school and social studies class. I'm hoping that they use it in curriculums to say, like, you know, these conversations can actually be really interesting and fun and musical and engaging and this is that book. Hopefully. It's based on doctor Ibram X Kendi’s Stamped from The Beginning, which is the definitive history of race in America and racist ideas and deals with the concept of anti-racism. And the overall goal is just to give young people literacy when it comes to race. Give young people vocabulary, language, lexicon, so that by the time they are 20 years old, they can have these really uncomfortable conversations in a more comfortable space and a less emotional space, but a more informed way. And we can actually turn some corners that's the overall goal.
Betsy: [21:13] That's great. And then I understand. Long Way Down is being turned into a graphic novel in October.
Jason: [21:21] It is, it is.
Betsy: [21:23] Who's doing the art? Who's doing the art?
Jason: [21:25] Danica, She's one of the best in the entire game. Because ... I'm so excited. I can’t wait for people to see it because it's not what people are going to think about when they think graphic novel. This almost feels like it feels like fine art, like it feels like it should be in the museum. Like it's beautiful. And it's it's watercolor and washed. And I mean, it's it's a work of art. Because that's my whole thing. I didn't want to do a graphic novel in its traditional sense. I mean, I've you know, I've been all over the world. You know you you travel and you look at what's happening overseas in terms of art, graphic art, graphic novels like if you go to see what the French are doing, what the Italians are doing, it's really beautiful and sophisticated stuff. And they're breaking the bounds of sort of traditional comic book blocks. Right. All of which ... and the cell format, all of which I think is great and a brilliant way to tell a story, but I am always trying to push for something more. And Danica is the perfect collaborator. And this is far beyond what I ever imagined it could be. So I'm excited for people to see.
Betsy: [22:33] All right. Well, Jason Reynolds, this was just a pure pleasure. Thank you so much for talking to me today.
Jason: [22:39] My pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks for everything over the years. I really appreciate it.
[Closing]
Betsy [22:46]: Well, folks that’s all for today. Subscribe to our show on your favorite podcast streaming platform so you can tune in as soon as our newest episodes drop.
If you have a stellar story seed and wanna be on the show, email us at storyseeds@literarysafari.com. You can also call our hotline at (646) 389-5153 and leave a voicemail telling me all about it.
Find us on Instagram at storyseedspod and visit our website www.storyseedspodcast.com for behind the scenes pictures, to join the Story Seeds Society, and so much more.
[Credits]
Betsy [23:25]: Credit to Matt Boynton and Ania Grzesik of Ultraviolet Audio for the sound mixing, design, and score of our bonus episode. Our theme music is composed and performed by Andrew VanWyngarden. And I am your host Betsy Bird. Story Seeds is a Literary Safari Media production.