On this bonus episode, our host Betsy Bird and Chris Grabenstein chat about growing Jasper’s giant story seed into the original story "The World's Biggest Detective." You’ll also get writing tips, imagination improv exercises, and hear how Chris Grabenstein became the best-selling author of multiple award-winning and New York Times bestselling page-turners for kids, including the fast-paced, fun, and funny Mr. Lemoncello's Library series.
Listen along as The Story Seeds Podcast host Betsy Bird chats with Chris Grabenstein (author of The New York Times best-selling Mr. Lemoncello's Library series). They go behind the scenes and talk about what it was like growing Jasper’s giant story seed about Zeta Zingone, the 74 foot tall boy detective on Episode 3, “The View From the Top.”
On this bonus episode, Chris shares tips and exercises on getting your imagination unstuck. He also talks to Betsy about his writing career: starting from the school newspaper, to his jobs in advertising creating commercials for Burger King with his buddy (and boss at the time) James Patterson, to finally becoming the best-selling author of books for kids.
Books and Media mentioned in this episode:
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This episode is also available on YouTube. Subscribe here.
Show credits: Matt Boynton and Ania Grzesik of Ultraviolet Audio for the sound mixing, design, and score of our bonus episode. Theme music is composed and performed by Andrew VanWyngarden. And, our host is Betsy Bird.
The Story Seeds Podcast is a creation and production of Literary Safari www.literarysafari.com
[Intro]
Betsy: [00:5:04] Hi Story Seeds Podcast listeners. Your host Betsy Bird here. Welcome to our bonus episode.
One of my favorite parts of this job is that I get to talk to all the authors we are featuring on the podcast to get the behind the scenes scoop on their experiences and writing life.
[Author Intro]
Betsy: [00:10:53]
Today, it's Chris Grabenstein! Author of the very popular Mr. Lemoncello’s Library series. Without further ado, here is our conversation.
[Betsy-Chris Interview]
Betsy: [00:00:23] Well, Chris Grabenstein, thank you so much for talking with me today. Well, let's let's get right into it here.
[00:00:44] So, all right. What sparked your interest in Jasper and this particular story? Is it a story about a 74 foot tall detective?
Chris: [00:00:59] Well, it is actually the 70-foot.. 74-foot height of our ...
Betsy: [00:01:05] Yes.
Chris: [00:01:07] That's like, oh, I guess, you know, I used to do improv comedy, so I'm always looking for a challenge or like, give me something and I'll make something up about it. And that, that what I thought Jasper did a good job of was coming up with a story seed that had a specific-- Because I think the best seeds are really specific like that.
Chris: [00:01:28] You've got a 74-foot detective. So you have to do a lot of thinking about that. And it really kind of sparked me to start imagining that world.
Betsy: [00:01:39] Well, that was one of things I really liked about the whole talk, was you really dug down into the specifics. You know, some people would be like, oh, 74-foot detective.
Betsy: [00:01:50] Sure. Let's just you know, we'll just begin with the mystery and then we'll explain his backstory later. But you really, you really, and especially with him, you really worked with him to get just the entire guy's backstory, his life, what it was like. And then when you wrote the story, you really spoke about, you know, what his life was like way before the mystery even even came along. So why did you set it up that way with the story first and that and the mystery sort of afterword?
Chris: [00:02:20] It's kind of what I like to establish the rules of whatever universe I'm creating, like an escape from Mr. Lemoncello's Library, there would be no magic, but there would be some really kind of high tech things that seemed unbelievable. But I always dug for logical explanations for what could do it. So people can willingly suspend their disbelief. And my very first books for kids were ghost stories. And when you write a ghost story, you really have to have the rules set. I remember that time I got to the third ghost story. All of a sudden, one of my ghost was floating above the ground or something. And my editor said, “Chris, your ghosts don't float. They've never floated. You can't just. You can't because that's where you lose readers or listeners is when you start breaking the rules.” So I wanted to build this world. Also, the more I thought about it, because I go off on these walks and I think I said, you know what? This is a tall tale. This is Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill. And there's a lot of fun in that genre of, you know, old Dan Tucker was a mean old man, washed his face in a frying pan. That kind of stuff that you can just have a lot of fun with. So I think that specific really triggered an awful lot.
Betsy: [00:03:44] Well, that's funny. So, yeah, you you said at one point that this was sort of a tall, tall tale. So for the listeners who have never heard what a tall tale is. Well, what is a tall tale?
Chris: [00:03:57] It's like the story of Paul Bunyan, who was probably 74 feet tall. And he was a lumberjack. I think tall tales were started as a way of fun and funny way to explain things. Like, how did that how did a railroad get built or how did we clear these forest up here in Wisconsin, in Minnesota, or where do whirlwinds come from down in Texas? It's Pecos Bill twirling his lasso. So I guess in a way it's like fables of old that tried to explain things by creating characters that mythological Greek characters in a way. I guess they're kind of folksy myths, aren't they?
Betsy: [00:04:39] Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, I think we all have our favorite because, you know, tall tales can be about someone who could just do something extraordinary like Pecos Bill, or they could be about someone who is like super literally tall. I think people get confused sometimes and they're like, oh, yeah, tall tales about tall people.
Chris: [00:04:55] All right. Paul Bunyon.
Betsy: [00:04:58] But there are so tall people in these tales. And of course, you know, from, I always think of children's books when I think of when I think giants like, I like Donna floor. I like Swamp Angel. I like the TV show Steven Universe, where pretty much anyone who is a fusion becomes a giant. So what are your favorite Giants? This is, this is my gotcha question. By the way, who are your giants?
Chris: [00:05:26] Jack and the Giant from Jack and the Beanstalk, of course. One of my favorite. I put him in the my book, The Island of Dr. Libris. I'm a little older than you and I was on when I was a kid. There was a TV show called Land of the Giants. And it was kind of a space thing, if I remember that kind of like Planet of the Apes. These astronauts were in a ship that I think that landed in a land where they were the tiny people. And my wife loved that one, too. Before we even met each other, we were both 10 years old in pajamas watching it. But Land of the Giants would be one of my favorite giant stories.
Betsy: [00:06:04] Sort of like Gulliver's Travels for television.
Chris: [00:06:06] Yeah, I like those picture books with The Big Dinosaur. I can't remember the name of them. But I used to have a print from those picture books with the big green dinosaur plays, baseball and things like that.
Betsy: [00:06:18] Oh yeah. Was that dinosaur, Bob? That was a Dinosaur Bob and the Family Lesardo. That's that's a...Yeah that's a great book. I love that book. So this is about a detective. Now, you said you wrote ghost stories. But have you ever written mysteries before? Like straight ones. Because Mr. Lemoncello has a bit of stuff that's out of the ordinary, but I don't know, can call it like a straight mystery. Have you wrote mystery before?
Chris: [00:06:49] Oh Betsy, I was president of the New York chapter of Mystery Writers of America.
Betsy: [00:06:55] What you were!
Chris: [00:06:56] Before I wrote for kids.
Chris: [00:07:00] Yeah, I wrote mysteries for adults. I created a by the book cop named John Ceepak. And there are eight books and there's eight books and one short story in that series. So that's what I did before I wrote for kids. Then I wrote these ghost stories, which I always think of ghost stories are mysteries because you're trying to figure out why are these ghosts here? Why and why haven't they moved on? So those were ghost stories. And Mr. Lemoncello is puzzle mystery. And my Welcome to Wonderland books are kind of basically mysteries. And I even got... this was kind of fun. The mystery writers of America asked me to edit a collection of short stories that will be coming out in the summer of 2020. And I want to do those old ones that I loved as a kid. The like, the one minute mysteries where...
Betsy: [00:07:49] Oh, I love those. Yeah.
Chris: [00:07:51] Where the conclusion the solution is chopped off. You get right up to the point where the detective goes, Aha. I knew who did it. And then you stop and the kids get a chance to solve the mystery. And if you can't go to the back and there's a solution.
Betsy: [00:08:07] Yeah. I feel like the Encyclopedia Brown books kind of ripped that off that format.
Chris: [00:08:10] I did my research. I think the same guy did Encyclopedia Brown and the one minute mysteries.
Betsy: [00:08:18] Get out of town. Donald Sobol did both of them. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, then he was ripping himself off. We all do that. We all do that. That's a legitimate.
Chris: [00:08:30] Yes, I'm steeped in writing mysteries and I think because that's what I like to read, because I always tell kids I was a reluctant reader as a child. I like to think of myself as a supercritical reader, may only want stories that get like a movie started or really get me involved in the story. And because mysteries have an element, it's almost like doing a crossword puzzle where you get to figure things out along with the characters. Those were always my favorite stories.
Betsy: [00:09:02] Well, one thing I sort of liked about your talk with Jasper was that you kind of show the process of how you make a mystery too.
Chris: [00:09:27] You know, what I always do when I write a mystery is I write a little like memo to myself. Here's what really happened. And sometimes I'll even draw a little diagrams of the crime scene. And then your job as a writer is to, you know, if you're playing fair with your reader is to expose enough of those facts. They can figure it out, but also use some of those same clues. The set for misdirection and red herrings and things. So you really can't start building your mystery till you know exactly what happened. Some of my mystery friends swear they don't know who did it till they get to the end of their first draft. But I'm a Virgo. I like to plan things.
Betsy: [00:10:05] Yeah. You're more of an Agatha Christie and less of a Rex Stout.
Chris: [00:10:10] Yes.
Betsy: [00:10:10] Yes, yes. There you go.
Betsy: [00:10:17] So have you ever collaborated with anyone before, whether they be child or adult?
Chris: [00:10:24] I have done 26 collaborations now with James Patterson.
Betsy: [00:10:29] Woah. 26!
Betsy: [00:10:32] I think there's 26 and we're working on for more this year. So we've done I Funny. together. I Funny. And we've done six books in that series. Treasure Hunters. I think the seventh book comes out next year. Jackie Ha-Ha. We did that two book series House of Robot and I just collaborated with my wife on a book called Shine. And we're still married after collaborating on...
Betsy: [00:11:03] That's a love story, that is.
Chris: [00:11:06] So that was a lot of fun. And I tell everyone, my wife is much more attractive than James Patterson.
Betsy: [00:11:14] That's a high bar you got there.
Chris: [00:11:17] That's exactly what she said. Just kidding Jim.
Betsy: [00:11:21] And, you know, when you when you collaborated with Jasper. Yeah. What did he bring to the table? You know, aside from his awesome name, because he himself has an awesome name. Yeah. He was thinking up these good names, too, as he was going through which I enjoyed but yeh.
Chris: [00:11:39] He came up with the name of Zeta. And I think his initial seed of and I tried to point out to him, I like how cool that was that he was thinking in specifics, you could have said, I want to do a story about a detective. And it's like there's five billion of those. How and that really is the same dilemma. Anyone who wants to write a mystery for kids or adults faces like the others, five billion of those. What's gonna make yours different, unique, worth reading? Because one of my big philosophies about writing and it's because I spent 19 years writing advertising is why does someone want to read or listen to this story? There has to be something in it. So I thought Jasper really brought his 74-foot tall...
Betsy: [00:12:29] I just love it's 74.
Chris: [00:12:32] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The specific-- I can't say the word. But ... There you go of it is what intrigued me the most. And then he was good to bounce ideas off of and spitball. And he was open to things. You know, a lot of people when they're collaborating, they're really not. They have an idea of what- where they want the story to go and that's it. And you'll get a lot. No, that wouldn't work. No, I don't think. No, the way I saw it. And I can't it goes back to my improv roots when I did the New York version of Second City with a couple of troops here in the city. You always say yes and you never say no to your scene partner. In this case, the writing partner proposes. And that's how I think Tina Fey talks about in her book. The yes and is if someone says “It's hot in here” and you go, “No, it's not.” Then the scene doesn't go anywhere. If someone says, “Wow, it's hot in here.” “Yes, it sure is.” You haven't denied the world they've created, but you haven't taken it anywhere. If your partner says, “Wow, it's hot in here” then you say, “Yeah, I told you we shouldn't have climbed inside this dog's mouth.” Then all of a sudden, I've taken that and I've added to it. And then I come back with as well as canine dentist. We had to get this small to get in here so you could just. So that's how you, you, really collaborate is you. It's like bouncing a ball back and forth and there's no bad answers or bad ideas. Your first time through some of them, you know, I always tell kids that law paper first. If it's bad, you'll see it. It's bad, but at least I have something to react to.
Betsy: [00:18:01] So with the idea of a 74-foot detective, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I would say that the idea is slightly- it's a little bit far-fetched. How do you create a story of something that is so not ludicrous, but just out there?
Chris: [00:18:21] Yeah. That's where I think, again, the world building and the logic and it is and actually that making it sound believable is where the story starts and what makes this story fun. I think if I just started like there's a crime and that the chief of police knew the only one who could solve it was a 74-foot tall detective. You know what? But what ... what I try to do is start with, again, with those tall tale kind of flourishes. And you realize. And also with stories, you always want someone to learn something or someone to grow. So I thought, you know, if you're a 74-foot tall and I made him a kid, I don't think Jasper necessarily cared whether the detective was a kid or an adult. But I think if I was a kid in those 74 feet tall, I wouldn't have accepted him yet. I wouldn't have learned how to live with it yet. So there's there's it's kind of like the 74-foot tallness can become a metaphor or a stand in for everything else that kids think that's weird about them. So I wanted him to, to be in this position where he knew he had like, this is cool. On the one hand, he's really tall. He can do all this stuff. But on the other hand, he doesn't fit in. And the one thing he wants more than anything is for his mom to be happy with him and she does not when the story starts.
Betsy: [00:19:49] And then in the course of things, you know, both went up onto the roof. I believe of your building.
Chris: [00:19:56] Yes, we're very lucky that we live on the 7th floor of our building, it's an old building in New York City that was built in the 1890s. I think it used to be a hotel and all of us on the 7th floor have little spiral staircases that take us up to the roof, which we've made into like a little deck up there. But I think it's pretty neat because especially in New York, unfortunately, has these really tall, ugly buildings going up now that are their first dwarfed skyline. There are a 100 by 100 there. They're, they’re like they have a really small footprint, but they're as tall or taller than the Empire State Building. And so it kind of looks like giants invading. But when you get up to this roof of our building, it gives you a perspective of what this character, how he might have to look at the world.
Betsy: [00:20:45] I love, you know, whenever anyone does some sort of research for their story and in a way, going up there and seeing how tall one building around there is and how tall 74 feet actually would be with a kind of research, I'd say.
Chris: [00:21:01] Yeah, it's research.
Chris: [00:21:27] So it's kind of good to get a perspective on that. And down the block there is a big construction site going on where they're building like an 8-story building. And so there's all these cranes there the day we went up and they have this crane with a big, long straw on it that pumps the cement from the street up to this 8th floor where they're trying to put the floor down. So that gives some image, really, play with his.
Betsy: [00:21:52] Oh that’s great. Now, where do you want the let's say that, you know, with this story and it's not finished by any means. Where do you get to hope, Jasper and the kids who are listening to the podcast might go with it?
Chris: [00:22:06] Well, I tried to set them up. I tried to set up. We've got this 74-foot tall guy who can. There's some special things about being that tall that make him valuable. And then the story I want to give away what he does. But I think the- I hope kids will come up with what mystery could only be solved by somebody who is that tall. You know, like it's, it's, it's working. It's like when they send up the bad signal to call in Pac-Man. They don't call Batman in on every job. But when would you call in a 74-foot detective.
Betsy: [00:22:45] That is the question.
Chris: [00:22:46] Are there a series of- Is there a burglar in the town, the seventh storey man or woman who only robs? That's his MO. His modus operandi is he only robs the seventh floor apartment. And the police to get there, they have to take the elevator, run up the stairs, and he's always one step ahead of them. That's when you need a 74-foot detective or something like that is where I hope they go with it. Something like what? When would his specific talents be called on?
Betsy: [00:23:20] And of course, you have to tell me, I don't know if you can. Does he make his mom proud?
Chris: [00:23:29] Well, I hope so in the next part of the story, because that whenever we write a story, we always talk about things that the character wants, like an escape for Mr. Lemoncello’s library. Kyle wants to win. But then also characters have something they need. And he needs to understand that he's just as talented as his brothers and his family in that story. So what Zeta needs in this story. He wants to solve the crimes and not destroy the neighborhood by being 74 feet tall. But he needs to do something to earn his mother's pride and love. Let's give him something, kids.
Betsy: [00:24:12] Now, just to pull back a little bit here. What made you want to be a part of Story Seeds? So what was it that appealed to you?
Chris: [00:24:23] Well, they approached me, and I guess, you know, I do a lot of school visits and there's always kids who come up to me who have ideas for stories. And then typically when I do a school visit, I'll do two assemblies and then I'll have a lunch with kids who are usually selected by the librarian. Either they're big readers or they want to be writers. And sometimes I'll do writing workshops with kids. And, you know, that's when I got started. I was 10 years old and in the 5th grade and I got some encouragement from teachers in Signal Mountain, Tennessee, where I grew up. And that's what got me started. So. And kids brains are so fertile that we should encourage them, because I really think that creativity and imagination are more important. Trouble for saying this then? Science in math. I mean, if you get and you know all your science and math and you don't have an imagination to do something new with that, then we're not going to move forward.
Betsy: [00:25:34] True. I would actually agree with I don't think that's a very controversial statement at all. But. But, you know, who knows.
Chris: [00:25:42] I like when they talk about STEM. They call it STEAM. And they add the arts as the--
Betsy: [00:25:51] So you're a STEAM man.
Chris: [00:25:53] Because if we just know... I'm a STEAM man.
Betsy: [00:25:54] Excellent.
Betsy: [00:25:57] Now you mention when you were a kid, what kept you going? Because you any kid can want to be a writer, but they might just peter out and be like, that's not a real job or bad. You know, it's too hard to be a writer. What ... you actually did it? So how do you do it?
Chris: [00:26:13] Yeah, OK, well, let's see, I won an essay contest in the fifth grade, which made me think, oh, maybe I, I want to have a little talent. And in sixth grade, I wrote a- skits for my friends to act in a talent shows and we got laughs and laughs will keep you going. Then in 7th grade, I wrote for the junior high school newspaper and I got to write funny stuff that everybody would laugh at. And I also had a teacher, a 7th grade teacher who she loved to laugh. And so I wrote at the time there was a columnist named Art Buchwald and Erma Bombeck was writing back then, there, the Dave Berrys of their generation. And so I said, why should I write these boring essays about what I did over my summer vacation? I'm going to write it like Art Buchwald would have written it. So I would write these funny essays. I would nail the assignment. But she liked what I wrote so much. She wrote in the margins of one of my papers. You will make your living as a writer someday. So I tell kids when a teacher tells you something, you know, it has to be true because they take a vow never to lie. So that encouraged me. And then by 8th grade, I started showing off. I really wanted to be a writer and I was terrible because I was doing everything I thought a writer should do, using big words and being poetic and stuff. And I actually sometimes will read something from my 8th grade composition book, this just horrible. But then I got to high school and I had a great English teacher introduced me to Shakespeare and Hemingway. I kept writing for the school paper writing plays. So I just like, you know, it really started when I was 10, 11 years old. And I just kept I always knew I wanted to be a writer. I just didn't know what I would be writing. So I know I wrote a movie for CBS with a buddy of mine. We wrote I wrote a Muppets, I wrote for comedy troupes. Yeah, I wrote for Jim Henson and the Muppets back in the days of Dial the Muppets where you would call up a telephone number and one the muppets would talk to you.
Betsy: [00:28:11] What! I've never even heard of this. Oh, my God.
Chris: [00:28:16] There was a bit. It was a big thing in New York, but then people were abusing it. I think there are like 50 cents every time you call one of these special numbers. And there was ones for sports and weather and you can talk to a Muppet. And they liked what I wrote for that. I got to write for a short lived TV show called The Little Muppet Monsters. And then I wrote A Christmas Gift, of John Denver movie that, believe it or not, has its own Facebook page. There are people who just love that movie. It was first on CBS in 1986, and it's still on. Every year this time of year. In fact, the Facebook page is talking. It's on the Hallmark Channel again this week, this holiday season. And then I was doing improv comedy. We made like ten dollars a show. So I was supporting myself as a typist. And my late wife said, you want to try to find a job where you can be creative every day. And that's how I eventually stumbled into writing advertising, where I took an aptitude test that was in The New York Times. There was eight questions, right. If you want work. And the creative director of the New York office of J. Walter Thompson is the fellow who wrote that test. What was? Guess what his name was J. Was James Patterson. No heat. And that's what people say. How do you get to write with James Patterson? Well, I've known him since 1984 when we used to do Burger King commercials together. Yes, that's- And so he was the inspiration for me trying to write books because I figured there might be some connection between writing commercials which are all about grabbing people's attention and writing page turners.
Betsy: [00:29:58] And both of you do so. So I would say the consistent pattern being both of your books is that the person picks it up and does not want to put it down.
Chris: [00:30:05] Yeah.
Betsy: [00:30:07] Exactly.
Chris: [00:30:07] That's what we trying to do. And then hopefully they say give me another book.
Betsy: [00:30:11] That was the goal for us.
Betsy: [00:30:13] Much like a burger at Burger King. Or perhaps horrible fry. So did your imagination ever get stuck? And if so, is there anything you do to get it unstuck?
Chris: [00:30:31] Never really get stuck because I have those improv games that I did for five or six years in a Greenwich Village basement, always in my head. But sometimes I think every writer goes, “I'm no good at this. How do I never- A good starting idea. But I'll… what happens next, I don't know.” And this is when I tell kids that that's when you need to go take a walk, because you'll find if you take a walk and you don't put any earbuds in and you don't have any devices for like 30 minutes, just go for a 30 minute walk, all of a sudden you'll start daydreaming again. And all of a sudden the answers will start presenting themselves. So now I kind of use my iPhone and talk, take notes. For years, I walked around with three by five note cards and sharpies in the pockets of all my jackets, pants, everything. There were stacks of them all through my house. Because what I learned doing advertising was you never had an idea when you sat down to have an idea. The idea always came when you were walking the dog or washing your dishes or standing in the shower. So be prepared for ideas to strike when you least expect.
Betsy: [00:31:42] That is true. All right. Final question for you, sir. Now, you talked a lot about improv, and we were kind of wondering, can you suggest an improv exercise for the kids who are listening that would help them get their imagination going, get their creative juices flowing, if you will.
Chris: [00:32:07] Yeah, one thing I do sometimes we'll do some improv. When I, when I go to these workshops and schools is a fun one to do and it helps with writing, is to pick an occupation or give yourself a list of occupations like plumber, baker, teacher. And then on another sheet of paper or on cards. Yeah do them on cards. Put down emotions like angry, sad, hysterical, happy, giddy, jealous. And then mix them all up and then tell me a story or answer questions. How you can do like a TV talk show. Answer a question as an angry baker. An angry baker who's got flour all over him and all of a sudden he is kneading dough like punches the dough with his fist. And, you know, so all of a sudden by putting the emotion with the occupation, you'll start developing a character in your head and that will help you when you're putting together your story.
Betsy: [00:33:14] Fantastic. All right. Well, Chris Grabenstein, you are a complete pleasure to speak to. Thank you so much for being with me.
Betsy: [00:33:24] Oh, thank you. My pleasure.
[Closing]
Betsy: [5:25] Well, folks that’s all for today. Subscribe to our show on your favorite podcast streaming platform so you can tune in as soon as our newest episodes drop.
If you have a stellar story seed and wanna be on the show, email us at storyseeds@literarysafari.com. You can also call our hotline at (646) 389-5153 and leave a voicemail telling me all about it.
Find us on Instagram at storyseedspod and visit our website www.storyseedspodcast.com for behind the scenes pictures, to join the Story Seeds Society, and so much more.
[Credits]
Betsy: [6:12] Credit to Matt Boynton and Ania (Jes-Shiek) Grzesik of Ultraviolet Audio for the sound mixing, design, and score of our bonus episode. Our theme music is composed and performed by Andrew VanWyngarden. And I am your host Betsy Bird. Story Seeds is a Literary Safari Media production.