On this bonus episode, host Betsy Bird chats with Carlos Hernandez, (author of the Rick Riordan Presents SAL AND GABI series) about his Story Seeds collaboration with twin sisters Siri and Zarana on the story "Citaria's Paintbrush." They also talk about the power of imagination in a world of screentime, how his work as a game designer and his love of gaming influences his fiction writing, how he met his wife Claire (through collaboration!), and the power of doodling.
Listen along as The Story Seeds Podcast host Betsy Bird chats with Carlos Hernandez, author of Rick Riordan Presents' Sal and Gabi series and winner of 2020 Pura Belpré Author Award. They go behind the scenes of Episode 6: The Paintbrush of Doom and talk about what it was like working with twins Siri and Zarana and growing their story seed (a girl who receives a magic paintbrush from her kooky aunt that turns whatever you paint, real! Things are going great as she creates dozens of hybrid creatures until ... upset by her friends' disbelief of the power of her paintbrush, she unleashes her anger on her canvas and paints a monster who comes alive!)
On this bonus episode, Carlos also talks to Betsy about how his work as a board game and video game designer helped him write the SAL AND GABI books as well as the importance of being your truest, most kooky self.
Books mentioned in this episode: Sal and Gabi Break the Universe and Sal and Gabi Fix the Universe by Carlos Hernandez Clockwork Phoenix Five by Mike Allen.
Games mentioned in this episode: Dear Reader, Dungeons and Dragons
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Show credits
Matt Boynton and Ania Grzesik of Ultraviolet Audio for the sound mixing, design, and score of our bonus episode. Theme music is composed and performed by Andrew VanWyngarden. And, our host is Betsy Bird.
The Story Seeds Podcast is a creation and production of Literary Safari www.literarysafari.com
[Intro]
Betsy : [00:00] Hi Story Seeds Podcast listeners. Your host Betsy Bird here. Welcome to our bonus episode. One of my favorite parts of this job is that I get to talk to all the authors we are featuring on the podcast to get the behind the scenes scoop on their experiences and writing life.
Betsy : [00:28] Today, I am talking to Carlos Hernandez, author of Sal and Gabi Break the Universe. Carlos collaborated with twins Siri and Zarana on their story “Citaria’s Paintbrush” and from the sound of it, it was double the fun. Listen on for our conversation.
[Betsy-Carlos Interview]
Betsy: [00:52] All right, well, thank you so much for talking with me today. Carlos, this is this is so much fun.
Carlos: [00:57] Oh, yeah. Very excited to be here. Thank you.
Betsy: [01:00] Yeah. So you got [laughs] You got twins.
Carlos: [01:04] Yes.
Betsy: [01:05] Nobody else in Story Seeds has ever gotten twins before. So they must have been like this guy. He can handle twins. We're not gonna give one kid. We're gonna give two.
Carlos: [01:15] It was so much fun, though. I mean, you know, so Siri and Zarana are just like an excellent twin pair and you could tell immediately they had very different personalities. And one is maybe a little more comfortable talking to a stranger that she just met. Another one is a little more introverted. But they worked together just the way that you think twins would work together. You know, where they kind of look at each other whenever I asked a question to see who would go first and how they were going to answer. And they were extremely courteous to each other and willing to sort of like jump in when they got excited, too. So it's just a very comfortable level that, you know, that kind of collaboration is is just like you get very lucky when you when you related to someone that you can collaborate that well with.
Betsy: [02:02] That is so true. And now have you ever collaborated with another writer before?
Carlos: [02:07] Oh, I have. The reason I am married is because my wife and I collaborated on a story together. We were just Facebook friends and, you know, we were growing better and better friends on Facebook. And at one point Claire said to me, hey, we should we should try writing something together. We did. We got published in Clockwork Phoenix Five. It's called The Book of May and
Betsy: [02:29] Aww.
Carlos: [02:30] The book, amazing epistolary story that we told back and forth. Even each of us taking a position of one of the letter writers. And after we were done, Claire said, you know, I had so much fun writing in this way to you. I want to keep writing. Can I write you like a letter for me? And I was like, heck yeah. And we started a correspondence and developed the friendship further and yadda, yadda, yadda. We are married two years.
Betsy: [02:55] That is such a nice how we met story. So you collaborated with someone before, but your difficulty here was that not only were you collaborating with someone, you're collaborating with younger someone, and that someone is two someones
Carlos: [03:08] Yes.
Betsy: [03:08] Who are experts already at collaborating with one another, as you yourself just mentioned. So how do you break into that? How do you insert yourself into that sort of collaboration?
Carlos: [03:19] With joy, you know,
Betsy: [03:20] Aww.
Carlos: [03:21] To me, the the the way to begin a collaboration is with excitement and joy. And to me, it's just it's very much like the way that good play works, you know. And I think that's really what collaboration has to feel like. You know, if it feels like labor work, negotiation, you know, detente and and truces and things like that, then it's not really going to work. Instead, what it should feel like is like, hey, you know, my name's Carlos. My favorite dinosaur is a stegosaurus. What dinosaur do you like? And you're off and running. You know, to me, it's like that playful attitude is the thing that makes collaboration, especially creative collaboration, really possible. And in Siri and Zarana they were, you know, prepared with their story and they're extremely smart. I just cannot emphasize how mature and smart these girls were. Just blows my mind. And, you know, they come from this international background. It's Bangladesh, Australia and the United States. All, you know, like is as part of their family background. And so they're already very sophisticated. And they and they love telling stories and they're artists. So there are multi-modal in the way that they approach it. So to me, the way to approach these talented young women was to say to them, hey, you gave me this story, how can we play together? And just started asking them questions that I had about what they wanted to talk about. And and, you know, they asked me questions back and we were off and running fast.
Betsy: [04:59] Yeah. It was very clear how how fast it was. And so, you know, they had this idea and you sort of came in and and you did such a lovely job of establishing trust right from the start. And you know what? Was there anything in particular that appealed to you about their story idea?
Carlos: [05:17] Oh, well, I mean, you know, I think one of the things that kids can do that adults have to work to do is they can just sort of like get in touch with their desires very, very quickly and symbolically, you know. So this idea of a paintbrush that can draw a silhouette that comes to life, it appealed to my imagination immediately.
Betsy: [05:40] There was one thing that you said to the girls that sort of stuck in my mind where you told them that there is a theory that all art is based on limitations that are rules and constraints, allow someone to enjoy art even more. I mean, do you have any rules or constraints over what you did with the girls here? Like, were you limited in any way that sort of fashioned your art?
Carlos: [06:02] Well, I mean, the collaboration is the limitation
Betsy: [06:06] Exactly.
Carlos: [06:06] Right at the beginning, right? You know, so like what happens in a collaboration is that each person is limiting what the others can do in a very conducive kind of way. And to me, it's like those limitations are what allow for the explosion of creativity. And I'm not sure what I said to the girls. But like, you know, if you think about, like what a sonnet is, a sonnet is an extremely rigid form, you know, 14 lines of un of rhymed iambic pentameter. And it is it is difficult to fit a message into 14 lines of rhyme, iambic pentameter. But that limitation, that specific formula of limitation has created some of the most during poetry in Western literature. So it's the thing that that we forget. I think in art we often think, oh, art should be free, creative, unlimited. That's not what creativity is. Creativity is using the tools that you have to arrive at a different conclusion or a new perspective, a new way of seeing things.
Betsy: [07:05] Oh, I completely agree. I mean, we often say that, you know, having too many choices is actually more limiting for people in some ways than than having your choices limited just when it comes [00:08:00] to creativity. I mean, they already had a sort of an idea of what this story was about. You know, they love making visual art, particularly the silhouette paintings. And they see other kids their age glued to their cell phones and they find it difficult to connect to them in some way. Well, at its heart, what was this story about to you?
Carlos: [07:36] So, you know, one of the things that I tried to tell them that they could think about is ways in which they could figure out what the story was about through the discovery of the character.I wanted to focus a little bit more on anger because you know, her. Her reaction is one of the things that causes the monster to appear, this shadowy creature that comes out of that. And to me, that's really like the most interesting part, because the world is going to be full of things that we don't like, how we react to those things will decide whether change happens or whether fights happen So we know we want to have this message about cell phones, but what can we say about Citaria’s reaction? Because at the end of the day, she is the one wielding this extremely powerful paintbrush. And that paintbrush brings a really scary monster into the world. You know, I think most of those monsters are really sweet. They're sweethearts.
Betsy: [08:40] Yeah.
Carlos: [08:41] There's only one bad one in the whole bunch. And that's the one that Citaria happens to summon.
Betsy: [08:46] Did you have a favorite creature that you created as part of the [story.]
Carlos: [08:49] The winged baloney sandwich was was a favorite. I have to admit.
Betsy: [08:54] How could it not be
Carlos: [08:55] Right. Because.
Betsy: [08:58] The only thing that can make a baloney sandwich better is to give it wings?
Carlos: [09:00] I mean, I'm not sure how edible it is at that point, but it certainly is entertaining to behold.
Betsy: [09:05] Exactly.Now, you're a game designer.
Carlos: [09:07] I've worked on video games. I was just a game that just came out for the Nintendo switch. That's called Dear Reader. I was the literary curator on it for some of it's Earth. Just so I did some early work on it. And I've consulted on many, many games, but I lately have been working more on card games and board games. And, you know, right now we're in a board game Renaissance. It is...
Betsy: [09:33] Oh, I know.
Carlos: [09:32] ...it is the time to get the best board games that I think have ever been produced. You know, and to enjoy them. And role-playing Games, too. You know, I've been a role-play gamer since first edition Dungeons and Dragons. And, you know, and so I play in in what's called a 5v d20 world. But it's science fiction. The system called espero Genesis. And so, yeah, I'm a big gamer and I have taken many, many lessons from game design and used them in my writing. For instance.
Betsy: [10:04] Well, that was what I was going to ask. Yeah.
Carlos: [10:06] Yeah.
Betsy: [10:07] I mean, does it apply to what you're writing?
Carlos: [10:09] Not only does it apply, but it is in some ways the most challenging writing, I think the hardest projects I've ever had to do have involved writing game rules. Rule Writing is some of the most difficult, exacting work that I've ever had to do. And let me tell you, just like if you've ever tried to explain to somebody simply and quickly how to play a game, you will discover how hard it is to do.
Betsy: [10:36] Oh, yeah. Well, that makes sense to me. And so that's sort of part of your writing process. I would I would take it to a certain extent.
Carlos: [10:43] Absolutely, becauseIn game design, what you do is you iterate. You know, nobody thinks that the first time that they come up with a couple of mechanics and slam them together, they're going to have a finished game. But [00:14:00] for some reason, many people think that the first draft that they write should be the last draft or else they're not good writers. And so, you know, it is extremely important as a writer to be able to draft, collaborate with editors. Right now, I'm getting, you know, the final edits in for Sal and Gabi Fix the Universe, the sequel to Sal and Gabi Break the Universe. And, you know, my editor told me she loved the book. She loves it. She gave me a long list of all the reasons why she loves this book. And then she gave me, you know, millions and millions of hits. And that's both things can exist at the same time, writers out there. So please just believe that she wasn't lying, that she loved the book. She really did. But there was work to do. And that's that's just part of the process.
Betsy: [11:43] Oh, sure. And you're talking about your process. You had already sort of mapped out kind of a story arc during your meeting with the Siri and Zarana. Is that something that you always do before writing?
Carlos: [11:54] No, not at all. In fact, says Siri and Zarana, they came in with most of the plot done. Usually I will save my outlining for a second or third draft because what I found is that writing from outline for me, not true of every writer. But for me, it has led me to, you know, feel dissatisfied when I wanted to change something because I thought I had found a better way. What I've discovered is like, you know, usually the things that I love most happen late in the drafting process. You know that once once I have learned who these characters are, once I put some ideas together in the plot, that's when the funniest moments come up, the best lines come up the the scene. So in Sal and Gabi Fix the Universe. You know, I I threw out one hundred thousand words before I got to the hundred thousand words that I'd be submitting to my editor. Now we're reducing it down and shaping it into its final form.
Betsy: [12:46] And then there was art sort of involved in this whole process. Did visiting the Children's Museum of the Arts inspire the story or shape the meeting in any way?
Carlos: [12:58] It's such a great space. Like everybody who has kids in New York go there because it is just this magnificent play space for the imagination. It is just this magical place, you know, that was full of unusual, inspiring things. So they they put us in a room that Siri and Zarana knew about because they had gone there to do some work creating stop motion videos, you know, so they knew like the the space already pretty well, which I think was really good because that meant they were a little more comfortable. But the best thing about it was that there was clay on the table and Siri and Zarana spent the entire time while they were talking and thinking, interacting. They were paying attention the entire time, but they were also creating things with that clay.
Carlos: [13:45] I remember reading something. Don't ask me where, but I remember reading something that said that students who doodle can very well retain as much or more information as students for in quotes, paying attention because the doodling activates different parts of the brain. But I really saw that in action with these two where they were just creating and creating at the same time that they were creating with me, you know, and it's just like they're just so bright. They have all 0f this extra imagination just ready to deploy in all these different directions at the same time.
Betsy: [14:18] And they weren't just creating animals. They have these characters that they made like Aunt K.J, the kooky aunt that seemed to that seemed like a part that really kind of appealed to your imagination. Was there something about the ad that you particularly liked?
Carlos: [14:32] Well, it's an anchor character, right? And so, like, you know, we have our, ah, protagonist who is going to be facing the challenges, but we needed some characters in there to serve as reference. And to me, the kooky people are the best people. Kooky equals greatness, you know, because that means nonconformist. It means a kind of plastic. It means imaginative, it means courageous. And so that's what the ad ends up being in the story you know, K.J. She is a tapestry maker and her next tapestry is going to be the story of the entire world. And the king and queen of Belgium have hired her to make a tapestry, which is why she isn't around for Citaria’s birthday and why she invites her at her home to take this magic paintbrush as her own, you know, and, you know, not to spoil too much of the plot, but the way that K.J appears. I think, you know, you need somebody who is in quotes, kooky, who to be able to materialize in the story the way that she does.
Betsy: [15:31] I agree. Were you a writer when you were a kid?
Carlos: [15:34] I was, and so one of the reasons why Story Seeds excited me so much is because I was allowed to read a story on an AM radio station in Sarasota, Florida, called WQSA. When I was in fourth grade and it was, you know, the story about Crazy Chris. Crazy Chris had magical powers. And so this was, you know, at the time of tensions with Iran and things like that. And so I wrote, you know, this story where, you know, it pains me now knowing that the world is a much more complex place and there are different sides. But, you know, I imagine that missiles were shot in the air and there was going to be a big war starting or whatever. But crazy Chris. He uses his magic powers to turn that those missiles in the air into food and redirect them to countries where people are hungry, you know, and basically
Betsy: [16:31] Aww
Carlos: [16:32] Use it to feed the world a little bit. This is, I think, you know, probably right around the time of like we are the world. The other thing is this is the time when there was definitely famines were happening. So, like, I was you know, Chris is solving a lot of problems at the same time.
Carlos: [16:48] And they invited me back a few times and it was it was life changing. You know, it was just like this glorious moment where I got to projected. Just imagine all the people out there that I couldn't see who were listening to the story and people were calling in. So there was a Q&A session. It was great. And so I was just delighted to be able to give something back to Siri and Zarana that that resembled that experience.
Betsy: [17:13] That's great. Well, what kept you going? A lot of kids, right? But they may just stop at some point be like we'll never become a writer. So how did you go from being a kid that like to write? To be an adult who actually does write?
Carlos: [17:26] Yeah, it's a good question. I guess what I would say is I had extremely wonderful parents who helped me sort of like just feel good about doing the thing that I wanted to do. And so, you know, I [00:26:00] think. For a while, I wanted to be a doctor. Want to be a lawyer. Thinking about going to politics, I was in debate club. Like going through all these things with many kids do, but never not thinking that I would be in some way devoted to literature. I think just because I was just so in love with stories. And so, you know, eventually what I settled on was going into the professoriate just because I really liked being in school and really liked school. And so that's where I stuck it out. And my parents just sort of like they never questioned and they they never challenged me on that idea. They were just like, OK, that's the direction you're gonna go. You can figure it out from there. And that gave me the courage. I think, you know, it just makes such a difference, you know? So my dad, you know, he's a Cuban immigrant, came here, you know, in order to, you know, escape from from Cuba. Right. When Fidel Castro was really [00:27:00] on the run. Well, you know, so it's a complicated story. But Dad, you know, he basically fled me in the early 60s after Castro taking power. And when he saw what was happening, came here, went to the University of Chicago, taught himself English while he was studying in medical school. And so he does a lot of medical work. And in Cuba that wasn't really recognized here and was able while learning the language to also, you know, get enough of a of a education to put him in a position where he could be a cardiological technician.
Carlos: [19:19] And so he always emphasized sort of like the importance of study and, you know, how what kind of avenues get opened to you for study. And my mom was just such a storyteller. She was just such a Ólafur and a person who took joy in other people and had all sorts of stories. So, you know, between the two of them, I was really set up for it. And so, like, I guess the question is like, why did I do it? I think I loved it. And I never stopped loving it, even as I imagined other careers for myself. And I had parents who supported me.
Betsy: [19:50] That's great. Well, now let's say that you are writing something and your imagination gets stuck in some way. How do you get your own imagination unstuck?
Carlos: [20:01] It's an interesting question. I don't I don't think imaginations get stuck exactly.
Betsy: [20:05] Mm hmm.
Carlos: [20:06] I think what happens is that we think it's too hard or if it's not working. There's a frustration that that settles in. But I don't think that's really the imagination that happened, that that's working with it. It might just be a problem with a story that we don't know how to tackle, or it might just be a frustration that we're feeling But the idea is sort of like it's not sort of like I'm not creative enough. It's more like I feel bad. Therefore,
Betsy: [21:31] Right.
Carlos: [21:31] I'm having trouble producing right now. And so a lot of times, you know, there are many different steps we can take. Right. But just taking a break and walking away sometimes that with Stephen King calls the boys in the back, I think is what he calls it in his his book on writing. You know, they'll they'll do the work for you a little bit. And so you just free your imagination from the constraints of like, I need to do this right now and give it time to work on its own. Showers for me are miracle workers. You know, those are that's
Betsy: [21:01] Yeah.
Carlos: [21:01] What a lot of of free thinking that will often present a problem, present a solution to a problem that I hadn't seen before.
Betsy: [21:09] So would you have any creativity exercises that you would recommend to kids who might be listening to this.
Carlos: [21:15] All right, so kids, here's what you do. Smash things together. You know, basically, like I think a lot of what creativity is, is taking too unlike things and smooshing them together. So in in the story, Citaria’s Paintbrush, you're going to see that a lot of monsters are basically mashups of different creatures that exist on Earth and or baloney sandwiches. But so what you what you do is you take two unlike things and you bring them together and then you talk about them. That's what mythology often does. You know, so if you think about like the Sphinx, you know, the Sphinx is a mash up creature. The Griffin is a magical creature. There are all of these different creatures from mythology that are these kind of mashups. And so many of them are sort of like humans with heads of animals. And the reason for that is because that was a way of bringing two different ideas together to talk about something that was deeper than either of them.
Betsy: [22:13] Beautiful. Beautifully said. Well, Carlos Hernandez, thank you so much for talking with me.
Carlos: [22:19] Oh, thank you so much. Tons of fun.
[Closing]
Betsy: [22:23] Well, folks that’s all for today. Subscribe to our show on your favorite podcast streaming platform so you can tune in as soon as our newest episodes drop.
If you have a stellar story seed and wanna be on the show, email us at storyseeds@literarysafari.com. You can also call our hotline at (646) 389-5153 and leave a voicemail telling me all about it.
Find us on Instagram at storyseedspod and visit our website www.storyseedspodcast.com for behind the scenes pictures, to join the Story Seeds Society, and so much more.
[Credits]
Betsy: [23:02] Credit to Matt Boynton and Ania (Jes-Shiek) Grzesik of Ultraviolet Audio for the sound mixing, design, and score of our bonus episode. Our theme music is composed and performed by Andrew VanWyngarden. And I am your host Betsy Bird. Story Seeds is a Literary Safari Media production.